This is a rush transcript of ‘Fox News Sunday’ on December 10, 2023. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.
GILLIAN TURNER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: I'm Gillian Turner.
The U.S. vetoes that U.N. Security Council's demand for a cease-fire in the Gaza Strip. This as Congress turns up the heat on the nation's elite universities over antisemitism on campus.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEMONSTRATORS: Free, free Palestine! Free, free Palestine!
TURNER (voice-over): A president of a major U.S. university resigns and two others are under fire.
REP. ELISE STEFANIK (R-NY): Calling for the genocide of Jews violates Harvard's code of conduct, correct?
CLAUDINE GAY, HARVARD UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT: It depends on the context.
STEFANIK: It does not depend on the context. The answer is yes.
TURNER: Politicians on both sides of the aisle are outraged.
SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D-NY): You can't unsee it when you see it, and it haunts you. Like no other image you could ever see on a movie screen.
TURNER: But human rights and women's groups are staying mostly silent over evidence that Hamas terrorist used rape as a weapon of war against Israeli women.
SHERYL SANDBERG, PHILANTHROPIST: Do we believe the Hamas spokesperson who said that rape is forbidden or do we believe the women whose bodies tell us how they spent the last minutes of their lives?
TURNER: We'll discuss the debate playing out across the country with South Carolina Republican Nancy Mace.
Then, President Biden signals he's ready to make a deal with Republicans on the border. This in order to get millions of aid dollars to Israel and Ukraine. We sit down with Sweden's defense minister Pal Jonson to get his take on the ongoing wars and his country's bid to join NATO.
And former President Trump is scheduled to take the stand on Monday. This as President Biden's son is indicted for a second time. We'll ask our Sunday panel how legal woes are now shaping the race for the White House.
Plus, Virginia's Lieutenant Governor Winsome Earle-Sears has a message on expanding the Republican tent.
LT. GOV. WINSOME EARL-SEARS (R-VA): I say to the GOP is, you do not cede any vote. You must go after every vote.
TURNER: All, right now, on "FOX News Sunday".
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TURNER (on camera): Hello from FOX News here in Washington.
The U.S. is facing major pushback from other nations two days after vetoing a U.N. resolution that called for an immediate cease-fire in Gaza. That resolution was backed by nearly every Security Council member country. It also came after U.N. warnings of humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip, as Israeli expands ground operations further south.
Here at home, meanwhile, the nation is splintering over support for Israel, most pointedly across college campuses. The University of Pennsylvania president Liz Magill stepped down last night after her responses in a congressional hearing sparked fiery public backlash this week. She had declined to say the students would call for Jewish genocide should be disciplined.
Over on Capitol Hill, Senate Republicans stalled the president's supplemental funding bill which includes hundreds of millions of aid dollars for Israel and Ukraine, demanding instead to secure the U.S. southern border first.
In a moment, South Carolina Congresswoman Nancy Mace joins us live here in the studio but we began first with FOX team coverage. Lucas Tomlinson standing by at the White House with fallout from the university president's testimony.
First, we go to Trey Yingst in Sderot, Israel, with the very latest on the war in Gaza.
Hi, Trey.
TREY YINGST, FOX NEWS FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Gillian, good morning.
Israeli forces say they hit 250 different targets overnight as the war enters its tenth week. Behind me, black smoke billows from the Gaza skyline in the Beit Hanoun neighborhood, the aftermath of some of those air strikes. The current operational intensity is expected to last for at least another month, according to officials familiar. After arresting hundreds of Palestinian men in Gaza, authorities here expect to gather new intelligence that could help them to go after Hamas leadership in southern Gaza.
The cities of Khan Younis and Rafah will be the focus for ground forces in the coming weeks. The death toll in the strip continues to rise and now stands at more than 17,000 people according to the Hamas-run Palestinian health ministry.
The war does continue to draw international condemnation with countries like Jordan and Qatar calling for an immediate humanitarian cease-fire, this after 13 out of 15 U.N. Security Council members voted Friday to call for a truce before the resolution was vetoed by the United States.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu responded saying this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Other countries should also understand that it is impossible on the one hand to support the elimination of Hamas and on the other hand, to call for an end to the war. This will prevent the elimination of Hamas.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YINGST: Well, international focus remains on Gaza. There is continued fire from southern Lebanon. The Lebanese militant group Hezbollah targeting northern Israel earlier today -- Gillian.
TURNER: All right. Trey Yingst reporting from Israel for us this morning, thank you, Trey.
Joining us now is Lucas Tomlinson, with White House reaction to congressional testimony on antisemitism this week.
Hi, Lucas.
LUCAS TOMLINSON, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Gillian, after a major donor threatened to pull his $100 million donation and 37 members of Congress called for her resignation, the president of the University of Pennsylvania has stepped down
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOMLINSON (voice-over): Liz Magill voluntarily tendered her resignation according to a letter released by the school's board of trustees late Saturday afternoon.
Pressure had been mounting on Magill after she testified along with three other elite university presidents before a House panel where they were grilled by lawmakers, including Republican Congresswoman Elise Stefanik.
STEFANIK: At Penn, does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Penn's rules or code of conduct? Yes or no?
LIZ MAGILL, FORMER UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA PRESIDENT: It is a context- dependent decision, Congresswoman. It can be depending on the context.
TOMLINSON: The White House responded following the contentious testimony.
KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Calls for genocide are unacceptable. It's vile and it's counter to everything this country stands for.
TOMLINSON: Magill attempted to walk back her comments following her Capitol Hill testimony.
MAGILL: I was not focused on but I should've been. The irrefutable fact that a call for genocide of Jewish people is a call for some of the most terrible violence human beings can perpetrate.
TOMLINSON: Days later, she is out of a job.
Following Magill's resignation, Congresswoman Stefanik released the following statement: One down. Two to go. This is only the very beginning of addressing the pervasive rot of antisemitism that has destroyed the most prestigious higher education institutions in America.
This forced resignation of the president of Penn is the bare minimum of what is required.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TOMLINSON: UPenn says Magill will remain at the university as a tenured faculty member. The chairman of the board of trustees who announced her resignation also resigned a short time later -- Gillian.
TURNER: All right. Lucas Tomlinson, reporting from the White House for us, thank you.
Joining us now here in Washington is South Carolina's Congresswoman Nancy Mace.
Congresswoman, thanks for being with us today on an early Sunday morning. Good to see you.
REP. NANCY MACE (R-SC): Good morning. Good to see you.
TURNER: Let's talk about the surge of antisemitism first on college campuses.
MACE: Uh-huh.
TURNER: A lot of it laid bare in that testimony that Lucas reported on for us this week.
MACE: That's right.
TURNER: So Liz Magill at UPenn is now out. What else needs to be done?
MACE: Well, any college president in this country who cannot condemn antisemitism, cannot condemn Jewish genocide, they need to resign or be fired. There ought to be consequences for that because the reality is Israel is the only country in the world that is literally at risk of real genocide.
And that's what we're talking about here. It's disgusting. It's shameful, and it shouldn't be happening on our college campuses.
TURNER: I want to ask you about this as well. Israel has now produced over 1,500 pieces of evidence that show Hamas raped, sexually assaulted women and girls on October 7th. A lot of women's groups, though, who professed to care deeply about protecting women have stayed largely silent. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D-NY): Where is the solidarity for women in this country and in this world to stand up for our mothers, our sisters, and our daughters?
SHERYL SANDBERG, PHILANTHROPHIST: We call upon the entire U.N. to formally condemn Hamas for these rapes.
HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: As a global community, we must respond to weaponized sexual violence wherever it happens with absolute condemnation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TURNER: Do you agree?
MACE: Absolutely. But where -- where are the women? Where are the women's groups who professed to be fighting for women around the world who've been dead silent on this issue?
And I look at my colleagues in the House, where are they? Representative Jayapal -- her excuses last week.
I mean, we know now -- we know now that Hamas in their battle plan was to go in and systematically rape, mutilate, and murder these Israeli women. And I'm -- I'm a survivor of rape, but the difference is that I survived. But many of these Israeli women didn't, and they were mutilated, and murdered while it was happening.
And I can't think of anything more shameful to see these women's groups, to see women on the left, women in the House, my colleagues on the left who refuse to say what this is, which is shameful. It's disgusting. It's barbaric.
And we ought to be condemning it from every corner of our country. Every woman should be condemning this. And I think it's shameful.
TURNER: And what about the U.N.? U.N. women who's been called out for not taking a stand?
MACE: Yeah.
TURNER: The secretary general himself, 55 days to acknowledge the Hamas sexual atrocities. And when he did so, it came in a tweet.
MACE: Yeah. And we're seeing all this evidence now, and so many of us, we've seen videos of women who were naked and nude, and now, we're hearing all these stories of the evidence of witnesses that were collecting the bodies of these Israeli women. And I can't think of anything more barbaric.
It just goes to show there are some people in this world who are still animals. And that's what Hamas is.
TURNER: Turning our attention here to the U.S. We saw a record-setting numbers of migrants crossed the U.S. southern border over the past week. More than half a million people came into the country illegally since just October 1st.
FOX News was on the scene in Lukeville, Arizona. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLPI)
REPORTER: Where in the United States do you want to go?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detroit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: California.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New York City.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New York.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New York City, I have family members there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miami.
REPORTER: Where are you going in the United States, what city?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Omaha.
REPORTER: Omaha, Nebraska.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miami.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oklahoma.
REPORTER: Oklahoma?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: South Carolina.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TURNER: It's really not just a crisis for U.S. border states anymore, is it?
MACE: No, and look, this is literally evidence and documentation that every town is now a border town in this country.
I'm from South Carolina, I represent some small towns. But just two years ago, we were arresting people from MS-13 gang. And this is happening all across the country, and it is a major issue for every American whether you're a Republican or a Democrat.
And it doesn't seem like anyone on the left wants to have a resolution. The minute we bring up for border security in Ukraine, everyone is like, no, can't do that at all. And it's insane to me that we want to give more money and more resources, and assets, and support to countries -- other countries' borders except our own.
And we're seeing this. We're seeing terrorist age men come across the border in record numbers. And with everyone else coming across, it's literally breaking our economy.
TURNER: Quickly, as your -- do you think that your caucus this week is going to come to some kind of a compromise agreement with President Biden on that issue to push this legislation forward, his supplemental spending?
MACE: Yeah. We'll see. I mean, Chuck Schumer has had a homeland security bill with border security -- responsible border security for weeks now and hasn't done anything with it. I don't think the left is serious about border security, and that is to their detriment.
We have a plan. We want to move forward. We're willing to negotiate, and they don't seem to want to.
TURNER: I want to turn your attention to politics before I let you go.
MACE: Uh-huh.
TURNER: Former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy announced this week he's going to step down at the end of the year. You were one of the handful of Republicans who voted against him.
MACE: Uh-huh.
TURNER: This leaves your party now going forward potentially with just a three-seat majority at the end of the year. Are you concerned about that?
MACE: Well, I think it also shows, too, that this wasn't about the people of this country. This wasn't about the party. This was all about power, one man's power.
And we have to move forward. We're going to have to be more united than ever going into next year, into 2024. We're going to have to work a little bit harder. And you know, I wish him the best of luck in the future whatever that looks like.
TURNER: Is there any real hope that you guys will be more united than ever before?
MACE: We have to be.
TURNER: OK. All right. Well, Congresswoman, thank you for taking time with us on this Sunday morning.
MACE: Thank you.
TURNER: Great to talk to you.
MACE: Good to see you.
TURNER: So, coming up next, we're going to bring in our Sunday panel to discuss that resignation by UPenn's president and whether antisemitism at U.S. universities is just the tip of the iceberg.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOUGLAS EMHOFF, SECOND GENTLEMAN: We've seen the presidents of some of our most elite universities literally unable to denounce calling for the genocide of Jews as anti-Semitic. That lack of moral clarity is simply unacceptable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TURNER: All right, that was Second Gentleman Doug Emhoff condemning University presidents for the congressional testimony this week.
It's now time for our Sunday group. Let's bring in Olivia Beavers, "Politico" Congressional Reporter, Juan Williams, "Fox News" Senior Political Analyst, Michael Allen, former Bush National Security Council Official, and Katie Pavlich, Editor for "Townhall.com."
Thank you all for being here in person. Great to see you. Katie, so Liz Magill is now resigning as President of UPenn. But the resignation comes only after very intense public backlash over the last couple of days, as well as costing the university at least $100 million in donations that we know of publicly so far?
KATIE PAVLICH, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think it's important to point out that while she is resigning as president of the university, she is going to be staying as a professor at the law school. So she hasn't had full consequences for what has happened here. So she would no longer be in a leadership position.
But this comes down to a problem that we're seeing that's not going to be resolved simply by university presidents resigning. It's a good start. But there is a deeply embedded problem of anti-Semitism on college campuses all across the country, whether it's with the faculty or teaching the students about this kind of ideology that is rearing its head on these universities. The problem that they ran into, mostly with the testimony they gave, is that these universities have extensive policies and handbooks about nondiscrimination and non-harassment. They apply that to a lot of different groups, except for Jewish students. And that is inherently, it's discrimination against students in a violation of their rights on campus.
And so they have to do a top-down review of why this anti-Semitism is so deeply embedded inside of the schools. And they have to make sure that the rules they already have in place are applied equally to all students, including Jewish students.
TURNER: So, Juan, to Katie's point, Magill is stepping down as president. She's still got a tenured professorship at the university. She can work there for the rest of her career. The presidents of MIT and Harvard remain in place as well. What can be done?
JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I don't think that they are anti-Semites, if that's what you're suggesting, that these are bigots. I think that they spoke badly. I mean, to my mind, what you saw in that congressional testimony was a failure to help themselves, a failure to speak with as Doug Emhoff just said in our program, they failed to express moral clarity. That genocide is wrong instead --
TURNER: And just a quick point, Juan, the Jewish students on campus have spoken out and said, it was also a failure to commit to protecting us after we have been expressing for months that we feel unsafe at the school where we pay a tuition.
WILLIAMS: Well, to get back to my point. I think it was just dumb. You know, I mean, it's dumb to say, oh, yes, I'm standing behind the constitution and free speech and free speech on campus, where people want to have academic debate and freedom of speech. I think all of us on this panel would say, yes.
The First Amendment allows all Americans to speak freely, even if I engage in hate speech. But it's calling for genocide. And you have to express right then, that's outrageous and wrong, and that's where they fail. They were hiding behind the Constitution.
To me, you know, it's not good. This is an important point, I think. It's not good for the best schools in America to suddenly be subjected to the whims of Congress or to rich donors. They should have said for themselves. Our values suggest not only with regard to some of these groups that Katie was talking about, and I suspect you're talking about women, blacks, Latinos, and Arab Americans, Muslims. But also for Jewish students, that we will protect you. That this is wrong. You can't call for the genocide of people.
TURNER: Did you get the sense, Olivia, that any of the three presidents on the stand two days ago believed that, that it is morally reprehensible to call for Jewish genocide?
OLIVIA BEAVERS, POLITICO CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: That was the line that they were trying to walk. They were trying to say, we believe these comments are bad. But the argument that you saw that, and it sort of went viral with Congresswoman Stefanik, was with the Harvard President, she was saying, we only take action when we think this turns into some sort of actual conduct. And that can be considered harassment. And at least Stefanik responded back, genocide is wrong and should be punished. And that's where you saw the clash.
And it's part of a broader issue that schools have had of trying to walk this line of whether it was free speech and keeping students safe. And I think we've seen from the backlash that the presidents are basically admitting they did not do a good job, saying that their priority should be keeping these students safe.
TURNER: The sentiment does also, Michael, go hand in hand with intense pushback from the left against the President's support for Israel and the ongoing Gaza war. Take a listen to Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. RASHIDA TLAIB (D-MI): President Biden, I say this over and over again because I hope you hear me. You must listen to the voices of the majority of Americans and the majority of Democrats who work their butt off to get you elected. You have to represent all of us, Mr. President, not just some. Call for a ceasefire now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TURNER: Is that true, Michael? Is the President required to take into consideration raw political calculations when making decisions about which parties to back in foreign wars?
MICHAEL ALLEN, FORMER BUSH NATIONAL SECURITY OFFICIAL: Of course not. We need to decide and advocate for what's in America's interest. Of course, Israel is a long-standing ally of the United States. They're trying to uproot terrorism. And what Biden should be doing now is continuing to give cover to the Israelis so that they can finish the job.
By the way, I think in the coming weeks they're going to shift the fighting from major combat operations to something more over the horizon, like drones and special operations raids. So that may take some of the political pressure off of the Israelis. But I think it's the job of the President of the United States to stand by Israel as they try and go about this business.
TURNER: To that point, Michael, overnight, Iranian proxy groups launched two more attacks against U.S. forces in the Middle East. They're also now threatening a blockade against Israel at sea in the Red Sea. Is that a major escalation in your estimation?
ALLEN: It is the Houthi in Yemen are funded by and more or less controlled by the Iranians who like to have proxy groups to pressure Israel and frankly the United States across the region. They're trying to up the pressure on us. It's mystifying that the Biden administration won't do more to deter these attacks by taking serious action and strikes against some of these proxy groups.
One of these days, one of these missiles is going to get through and hit a ship or one of these rockets is going to get onto Al-Asad Airbase and blow up a dining hall and there will be hell to pay. The American people should demand of their leadership more action to protect American soldiers overseas.
WILLIAMS: You know, I thought the question here, Michael, for me was, what if President Biden was to call for a ceasefire? And I think most Americans support Israel, but also think a ceasefire might be a good thing when you see these pictures of Gaza being absolutely devastated.
But I think if he calls for a ceasefire, and then the Israelis, Netanyahu says no, the United States loses its ability to shape that next phase that you were discussing. And we want this not to be a continuous tinderbox that's going to explode into a world war. The United States wants to shape something that could establish peace a deal of some kind.
TURNER: But Katie, what is to stop President Biden for calling for Hamas to release the hostages and emphasizing that, or for calling on Hamas to cease and desist ground operations targeting Israel?
PAVLICH: A ceasefire allows Hamas to win. And arguably, the reason why Hamas was able to carry out their attacks on October 7th is because the Israelis have engaged in ceasefires for basically two decades with this terrorist group.
You saw it in 2014, you saw it two years ago in the summer of 2021, they've repeatedly said that they could manage this problem, that Hamas doesn't really want to carry out their objectives of their charter, which is to destroy the state of Israel.
Israel has to win this to end this cycle of terrorism, and it will be better for Israel, be better for the United States of America, and will make the world a better place. It's really just that Fence Forces, have done everything they possibly can to mitigate the humanitarian problem. They've allowed aid to come in even though Hamas has stolen that aid to their advantage and given it to their terrorist fighters. They have to finish this or we will be right back here. According to the leaders of Hamas who are hiding in Qatar, not, of course, suffering with their own people.
TURNER: All right, panel, we got to leave it there for a moment.
Meanwhile, the U.S. is strengthening ties with a key European ally, signing this new military agree agreement with Sweden this week.
Coming up next, Shannon sits down with Sweden's Defense Minister, discuss that.
Plus, his country's bid now to join NATO. We're also going to take a look at brand new polls. They indicate multiple GOP hopefuls could potentially unseat President Biden. We're going to ask the panel if it's time for Democrats to hit the panic button. Next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TURNER: Welcome back. The U.S. and Sweden signed a new defense pact this week as the Scandinavian country is now on the brink of joining NATO. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and his Swedish counterpart met at the Pentagon to sign the paperwork. It's going to allow the U.S. access to all military bases across Sweden and hedge against Putin's regime in Russia as his war in Ukraine rages on.
Shannon spoke with the Swedish Defense Minister at the Reagan National Defense Forum in California just before he came here to D.C. to ink that deal.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SHANNON BREAM, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: So first and foremost, the conversation involving Sweden right now is about your entrance into NATO. It looks like objections from Turkey have fallen away, but you're waiting for the formalities of that. How critical is that for you all to join NATO with this one?
PAL JONSON, SWEDISH DEFENSE MINISTER: I think it's critical for Sweden, of course, for our security to be covered by Article 5 and also NATO's common defense planning, but it's also very important for the alliance because we have assets and capabilities that can make NATO stronger.
We also want to be integrated into NATO's regional plans, and if Sweden is in, it's of course easier to defend both Finland and the Baltic States because we can provide the alliance with strategic depth. And our territory can be used as a staging and basing area which will make NATO stronger.
BREAM: And you said you weren't surprised about what Putin did and the lines that he's crossed and where he's gone with respect to Ukraine. Part of his objections it seemed like back then where he was worried about the growth of NATO. And now it seems that the turn of events may have been that he's forced more nations into that very important alliance?
JONSON: Yeah, I always say that the Swedish and Finnish NATO membership, that's the mother of all unintended consequences for Russian thinking. Russia did not see that Sweden or Finland would join the alliance, and this was not planned, but that's of course a consequence. And this war has been a political and military disaster for Putin.
BREAM: You all are having the same conversations that we're having here in the U.S. about aid to Ukraine, about funding that. What is the sense like among the Swedish people about continuing forward with that aid and the level of what you're doing?
JONSON: It's a great support in Sweden for continuing the support for Ukraine. And I always say supporting Ukraine is what the right thing to do, but it's also the smart thing to do. Because when we're supporting Ukraine, we're also investing into our own security. Because if Putin would win this war, we would have much bigger problems than just providing military arms to Ukraine, and financially, and politically, and military supporting the Ukrainians. So this is really about investing into our own security as well.
BREAM: What are your long-term fears about Putin, about this potentially spreading into a NATO country, which would then obviously trigger Article 5 and a lot of different obligations from members?
JONSON: Well, I think you have to be aware that Russia has a great appetite for taking political and military risk. They have also stated they are going to reconstitute their armed forces and they are going to try to build an even stronger armed forces than they have before the war.
So we have to be aware of that and the best way to do that is of course in joining NATO, which is great for deterrence and the defense of the whole alliance, but also investing into our own armed forces. And Sweden has doubled our defense expenditures in just five years and we will do more also as well in making ourselves stronger. So that's really key for our security.
BREAM: What is the sense in the region about where Putin goes next? Do you think there is a settlement in which he, at any point, whether the Ukrainians fight back the land that they've lost, there's a diplomatic settlement? What do you see as the finish line for that conflict?
JONSON: There's only one country who can decide at, so that's the Ukrainians. If the Ukrainians want to regain the whole territory, they're waiting to the 1991 border, or if they want to stop negotiating, that's up to them. But there should not be any kind of decisions above the heads of the Ukrainians. The Ukrainians arm forces now doing something that's very difficult. They're going into these minefields, they're clearing mines, at the same time as their incoming shelf. I understand that is hard and difficult for them, but they have the determination. And if they don't have war fatigue, we cannot have war fatigue.
BREAM: And we're here as we're talking at the Reagan National Defense Forum, and there's a lot of talk here about alliances, about leadership, about international rule of law. Where would you assess that we are this moment in history with all of these various conflicts and real challenges for people who are about democracy and freedom?
JONSON: Sure, this has been difficult times and this has been challenged to rule law. And let me just say that Sweden and Finland joining NATO, that's also about the rule law, because before the war broke out in December, the Foreign Minister Lavrov presented a legally binding treaty saying that Sweden and Finland will not be allowed to join NATO, stating that Sweden and Finland were part of Russian sphere of influence. That's totally unacceptable. We are a sovereign country. We will make our own decisions on how to join NATO or not, in -- of course, in good dialogue with the rest of the NATO allies.
I think now we're where lots of challenges right now, of course, in the Middle East and what's happening in the Indo-Pacific with a much more assertive China and then of course in Ukraine.
But at the same time, the West has never been as united as we are right now, as far as E.U. and NATO has never cooperated as closely together. I think the U.S. has shown a very inspiring leadership in the Ukraine Defense Contact Group. And we should build on this unity that's very strong in the West.
BREAM: You mentioned China and obviously their influence is showing up globally in all kinds of different ways. What is the mood in Sweden with respect to China, your particular national security interests and its influence expanding the region?
JONSON: It changed enormously during this decade. If you will have opinion polls 10 years ago, Sweden would have a rather favorable outlook on China. But now we're much more aware, of course, China is throwing its weight around in the Indo-Pacific, we're also much more cognizant about some of the risk or unintended consequences of having foreign direct investment into our critical infrastructure. So we established new laws and regulations for that as well. So because we don't want to be in a situation where you're dependent on autocratic countries when it comes to your functionality or your national security.
BREAM: And that's a conversation we're having here in the U.S. as well.
Minister, thank you for your time.
JONSON: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TURNER: All right, thank you, Shannon. We're back with the panel now.
Michael, picking up on that national security thread, everybody on Capitol Hill arguing about border security. This week, Republicans say, though, that President Biden seems a lot more concerned with securing Ukraine and Israel's national borders than he is here at home, looking at the U.S. Southern border.
ALLEN: Yes, well, a good nation, a great nation like the United States can do two things at once. There are plenty of substantive reasons for Democrats to be for immigration reform and Republicans to be for Ukraine, but let's talk about the raw politics of it all.
The President is underwater on just about everything, especially immigration. He should want to get a deal with the Republicans, borrow some of the Republican street cred on immigration. I think it would help him electorally.
By the same token, Republicans in the House can't be seen or shouldn't want to be seen as selling out Ukraine. Ukraine needs us. We can't hand Putin a victory. So at the end of the day, bargain hard for immigration reform, but at the end of the day, the United States needs to be there for Ukraine. It's good politics also.
TURNER: And Katie, the Republicans are bargaining hard this week, holding back the President's supplemental funding bill for Ukraine and Israel over this issue. But with 535,000 migrant encounters along the southern border in the last two months, is there any amount of money that is going to solve the border crisis at this point?
PAVLICH: Look, talking to Speaker Johnson's office, they say, it's simple. Border security is national security. The President has ignored this issue. He's asking us for more money to simply manage this flow of unprecedented numbers, 12,000 a day at this point.
We want to stop the flow of illegal immigration and to raise the bar on asylum so we can have less fraud coming into the country. And so that's what they're arguing, and they're making the White House make this choice. And they're saying, we put this as part of the national security package because it is a national security issue. The FBI Director said to lawmakers this week on Capitol Hill that there are red lights blinking everywhere.
And when you have Republican senators as well, Lindsey Graham, who has been a staunch proponent of Ukraine and Israel aid, saying we need border security as well, because this is going to affect people in this country. And there is a huge threat. Then that is something the White House should be able to get on board with, of stopping this problem, not simply managing it with more money and more processing.
TURNER: And there are other blinking red lights, Juan, let's talk polls for a minute. Spade a new polls out from the Wall Street Journal. Take a look at this. Trump's still dominating the other Republican contenders in the primary, but interestingly, in a general now, take a look at this. He gets 47% compared to 43% for President Biden.
DeSantis and Biden head-to-head in a general, would come in tied at 45% each. And this is the most surprising to me. Nikki Haley comes out on top in a head-to-head against President Biden. She gets 51%. He comes out with 34. What surprises you in there?
WILLIAMS: Well, it's bad for Biden. I think, you know, there's no getting away from the idea that Americans are at the moment looking at Biden and saying, you know, we have some real problems here. If you're inside the Biden campaign, though, I mean, the message is, the election's 11 months away. And this is not going to be, 2024, a referendum on Joe Biden. There are billions. This is going to be an expensive spend on ads during this campaign. And what they're going to do is make it a choice election.
They're going to remind voters about abortion. They're going to remind voters that Trump this week told Sean Hannity he's going to be a dictator on day one, right? They're going to --
TURNER: But only for the one day?
WILLIAMS: For the one day, OK. I mean, there's going to be a lot of argument about exactly what you are getting with Trump that now is not in the discussion.
Right now, if you look at those polls, it says, for example, that Trump is beating Biden. But Trump is at like 37%. So if that's his base, the question is what's his max? And a lot of Democrats are arguing it's below 50%. So if it's below 50%, then Joe Biden has a lot of room to grow.
TURNER: To that point, Olivia, spoilers, you know, piling up -- potential spoilers on both sides. Trump's going to be on the stand tomorrow on Monday, that undoubtedly will have some impact on some voting bloc somewhere.
Also President Biden's son, Hunter Biden, is now indicted yet again for the second time. He's facing nine different charges. How are these things shaking out in the campaign?
BEAVERS: What a world we live in. One of the things that's interesting, and just going back to the polls that I thought was interesting, they found that a felony conviction for Trump would actually put Biden slightly ahead. It's within the poll's margin of errors.
Now, the one where he's taking the stand is a civil case, and he's basically, I think we could expect him to argue similar to how his Trump argued, which was he had a vision and he understood more than basically the money that had been projected and he was approved by the banks.
With Hunter Biden, it's a different case also, where it comes at a very bad time for Joe Biden. The President is down in the polls, and to have his son basically be hit with nine new charges that are much more serious than we've seen before, that adds a new weight where he's really struggled to answer for it. So I think we're going to see both campaigns be dealing with these legal issues moving forward.
TURNER: Juan, to the Hunter Biden point here, his failure to pay nearly one and a half million dollars, I think 1.4 million dollars in taxes over four years does pose a bit of a policy conundrum for his father. President Biden being a president who has dozens, maybe hundreds of times since the campaign advocated for wealthy millionaires in America to pay their fair share. How can he support his son and still advocate for that?
WILLIAMS: I think, you know -- I would say let's throw the book at all the tax cheats. You know, we, I think, lose trillions every year according to the government to tax cheats.
TURNER: Well, the President has said specifically about his son that he never did anything wrong. He has not said that about other millionaires and billionaires?
WILLIAMS: Well, I think that's his son. And I think his son has, you know, we're very much acting in discretion on this Sunday Show and not talking about the indictment against Hunter Biden because it's pretty awful in terms of his behavior.
And so I think that that's the man's son who's had drug problems, apparently sex addiction problems. And I think that he loves his son and lost another son in war. So he's standing by his son. That's a family issue.
But in terms of the policy that you're talking about, I think, Gillian, I think that, you know, let's get the tax cheats. Let's give the IRS, by the way. Republicans don't want to give Republicans the IRS money to go after tax cheats. Go after the tax cheats. Go after Hunter Biden if he didn't pay his tax.
TURNER: Well, in terms of it being a family problem, the President is connected to this in ways that IRS whistleblowers that we heard from in front of Congress this summer said they weren't allowed to investigate the connection they believed that Joe Biden had to these tax evasion charges and where the money came from. And so that certainly will be a problem for him on the campaign trail.
TURNER: All right, panel, we got to leave it there. Thanks so much for being with us.
WILLIAMS: Thank you.
ALLEN: Thank you.
TURNER: We'll see you next Sunday.
Coming up next, she made history when Virginia voters elected her as the first woman of color, first immigrant to statewide office. Now Virginia's Lieutenant Governor Winsome Earle-Sears is facing speculation she may run for governor. Shannon sits down with her next to talk about where she's headed?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LT. GOV. WINSOME EARLE-SEARS (R-VA): You must go after every vote. I did not know that I was conservative until I heard a message.
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TURNER: Welcome back. Winsome Sears broke barriers two years ago when she became the first black woman and the first naturalized female citizen, also the first female veteran elected to state white office in Virginia.
Back in August, she released a book, "How Sweet It Is, Defending the American Dream," about her personal faith and political journey.
Shannon sat down with the Lieutenant Governor in the state capital of Richmond. It's today's Sunday special.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BREAM: You have the most fascinating life story. In your new book, we get all of the details. But you talk about coming from Jamaica, six years old with your dad. You were immigrants to this country. Did you ever think you'd end up joining the Marines, which you weren't even a citizen when you did that?
LT. GOV. WINSOME EARLE-SEARS (R-VA): Yeah.
BREAM: Go on to be a business owner. Did you see all those opportunities here? What was your thought about coming here as a youngster from another country?
EARLE-SEARS: Well, of course, it starts with my dad, and it was his vision for a better life where he could restart his life actually and he only came with a $1.75, and if you want to really put it into something you can picture, seven quarters. How do you start your life seven quarters a stranger in a strange land? And you come at the height of the civil rights movement, just what? 17 days before Dr. King gave his, "I Have a Dream" speech, as a black man. And first of all, you applied to come, you begged to get into the country. So with his vision, of course, it led to my coming. He came and got me after he had stabilized himself and now here.
And so, I'm even first-generation American. I am still the little girl who came off the plane the Pan American plane.
BREAM: Yeah, I remember those days. And through that, you started to build a life here. And I remember you saying that you felt like the education system here was weaker than compared to what you were experiencing, the academic challenges that you got in Jamaica.
What was your assessment of where we are as a country on education? Because I know it's something that you still are fighting for, charter schools and other opportunities.
EARLE-SEARS: Yeah, so education is what lifted my father out of poverty after his $1.75. I mean, he took any job he could find and used that money to put himself through school, started his career, and now he's comfortably retired.
I have to find my own way in the world, and so education is what did it for me. Education will lift all of us, and that's why it pushed so hard for education because without an education you will get nowhere, and you'll get there very fast, and we see it in the statistics that are coming out.
Our children are not learning, and that's why we're saying, let's do all of the above. You know, when the slaves were getting their freedom, three things they wanted. First their freedom, yes. Then they wanted their families reunited, and then they wanted their education.
And you think about it, right after the Civil War, 1865, maybe 20 or so years later, just maybe 20 years. You see, we had Black Wall Street right here in Richmond. It was the first Black Wall Street. Then we had Oklahoma, and how do they do it? As black people, just a little bit removed from slavery. It was education, and in fact, that's why the master did not want the slaves to learn how to read and write because they could literally write their own ticket to freedom. Let this man free, and they could go off.
So that's why I have to push for education. I say public schools, charter schools, all of the above, and private school, home school. Do you know that black parents are the fastest-growing segment of homeschoolers? So it's all of the above. I'm not going to stand in the way of any parent who wants whatever it is for their child when it comes to education, especially.
BREAM: You talked a lot about your own journey as an immigrant to this country, but that of Black Americans as well and kind of some people expecting you to hold this mantle of, you're black, you're conservative, to be a spokesperson for that particular viewpoint.
But you've said you think that the GOP needs to do a better job of reaching all people, including different voting blocks and backgrounds of people who may not think that they actually have a lot in common with conservatives.
EARLE-SEARS: Yeah.
BREAM: And you've said there are people within the GOP who are not giving you a good name with black voters. So, where do you think the GOP is on that spectrum?
EARLE-SEARS: Well, what I really consider is that, and I say to the GOP is, you do not cede any vote. You must go after every vote. I did not know that I was conservative until I heard a message. And then I realized, wait a minute, what I believe and how I'm thinking about certain political parties don't ring true.
And so that's why you're seeing now, I think more black voters, Latino voters and Asian voters, immigrants, they're considering the GOP as a possibility. There is a -- well, you know, I'm for lower taxes. I am for -- for example, not just a certain type of education, but for education for all.
I'm not for quotas, you know. I'm for the right to work. I want to keep my money as much of it in my pocket that I work for, you know. There's certain things that are conservative in nature, and we just don't know that we are that way.
And by the way, I'm not trying to get all black people to be Republicans. I'm just saying we need political parties to leave us alone and we will do what we want to do. But we don't need political savers.
BREAM: You've talked about this GOP field that is now vying for the nomination for 2024 and you said they're really beating each other up and you'd like to see less of that.
You've also talked openly about President Trump and said that you don't think it's good for the country for him to run again. But it looks like at this moment, unless something changes, he's probably going to be the GOP nominee. What does that mean for the party and more broadly for the country if he is?
EARLE-SEARS: Well, I am considering, again, that I could not support President Biden. I mean, as a Marine, you know, the way that he pulled us out of Afghanistan, so many Marine blood was spilled there in addition to sailors and soldiers. And inflation is killing us.
I was at the grocery store the other day, and -- last week, in fact -- and bought a few things, and the sales clerk said, $40, $40, my God, what did I buy? But I could see that she had been through this before, so I paid the money and walked off, and just like any other person I'm thinking, inflation is killing us.
And so we've tried to do a few things differently here in Virginia with the gas tax and, well, the state portion getting rid of it so that people would have more money. The billions that we have returned to the taxpayers here in Virginia, we'd like to do more of that.
But -- so I couldn't vote for President Biden. At the same time, you can't call people vermin. You know, you can say that they're evil, you can say that, you know, they're divisive, some other things, but you can't call them vermin.
And I'm a Christian first before I'm anything else, and I don't want to be a stumbling block to anyone. And so the Apostle Paul said -- well, he said, when I was a child, I speak like a child, I acted like a child. But when I became a man, I put away childish things. That's what I'd like to see.
And equally, I did not agree with Hillary when she said that certain of us were irredeemable. We're not irredeemable. What we want is less drama. What we want is less drama. What we want is for the country to heal because you see what's going on around us, and we need someone who can bring us together.
BREAM: And a lot of folks are having that conversation about Virginia as well. Obviously, Governor Youngkin is going to be term-limited with one term here in Virginia. You and he both have said, when you're asked about your future, let's get through these elections here in statewide elections in Virginia. Those are over. Did score the big wins that Republicans had hoped for. So first of all, the question is, why do you think that's the case? And secondly, what is your political future with those now behind you?
EARLE-SEARS: Yeah, so I am always saying that the way forward is forward. There's nothing back there. We can learn from it and move forward. So what we do know is that we actually picked up a Senate seat. We're not really even talking about that. We were down and we've picked up one.
And yes, the results are not what we wanted them to be, but we're not licking any more wounds. We're going forward. Because we have to have a hope. We have to give hope to our children.
We know that the Democrats outspent us $110 million to the $77 million that we raised. Think about that, for state Senate races and state delegate races, that's amazing to me, $110 million. So money helps because then it helps to bring the message out.
And it would have been a worse bloodbath, actually but a bloodbath, period, if the Governor had not gone through this initiative that he was calling secure vote Virginia. Because we were able to bring out absentee voters, we call them, they normally only vote in presidential races or gubernatorial races and 500,000 of them.
Imagine losing 500,000 customers. You can't do that and win. You can't do that and stay in business. So those are the people we were trying to reach. And we got enough of them but not enough and we know that the Democrats are three to four years ahead of us on absentee voting, we're just going to have to keep plowing through, plowing through.
BREAM: Will your name be on that gubernatorial ballot the next time?
EARLE-SEARS: Well, we do have sessions starting in January and that's what I'm focused on. We have to get through certain ideas, we have to get through common sense agenda. The bills are coming through and some of them are so far left. It's just not going to be good. But we will work together one Virginia and get through it. Because guess what? Campaigns are done. It is time to govern.
BREAM: Lieutenant Governor, thank you.
EARLE-SEARS: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TURNER: All right, thank you, Shannon. A final word when we're back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TURNER: Welcome back. A quick note you can hear all of today's program on the Fox News Sunday podcast. Download and subscribe at Fox News podcast.com or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you missed the best moments of Fox News Sunday set your DVR to record the show each week on your local Fox station or on Sundays 2 p.m. Eastern on Fox News Channel.
That does it for us today. Thank you for joining us on this Sunday morning. I'm Gillian Turner in Washington. Have a great week. We'll see you next Fox News Sunday.
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END
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